Wednesday, April 30, 2008

Something interesting

Recently I have switched WOW server and joined the Alea Icata Est guild on Earthen Ring and anyway while on there forums I came across this thread entitled "Why are you a Democrat?" I begin reading these posts and quickly determined that these guys where no very smart and I'd like to post the contents of page 3 from this thread in which you will find me posting as Srill. Let me know what you think?

Please not that my post don't begin till the bottom third of the page....

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Elderbury
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:26 pm
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Taidaishar wrote:
One might also claim that statutory rape or child molestation are discrimination if the two parties are both willing, however, we have laws against it and they apply to everyone equally.

I'd be lying if I said that I understood your argument here. Children, by legal definition, cannot give consent.

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Taidaishar
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:36 pm
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Elderbury wrote:
Taidaishar wrote:
One might also claim that statutory rape or child molestation are discrimination if the two parties are both willing, however, we have laws against it and they apply to everyone equally.

I'd be lying if I said that I understood your argument here. Children, by legal definition, cannot give consent.

I figured you'd say that. But then again, does that not discriminate against one group of people? What makes an 18 year old man any less than a 17 and 364 day old boy? Are we not telling one group of people they can't do one thing while another group can? However, the law applies evenly to everyone. It's the same with drinking laws... if that helps. Both people are adults, but one can drink and one can't. You could call it discrimination, but the law applies evenly to everyone.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think any of these laws are out of order or should be changed. I'm merely giving an example of certain laws that are the same for everyone, but when viewed in a different way, could be construed as discriminatory.

edit: I saw you lurking so I was waiting for your response and kept hitting refresh... I didn't notice there was a third page...

Edit 2: I'm not saying that civil unions should or should NOT be legalized. I'm merely saying that as it stands now, homosexuals have the same rights as we do. If civil unions happen, it's not just going to give homosexuals the right to marry someone of the same sex, it's going to give EVERYONE that right, even heterosexuals.

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Honar
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:06 am
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Elderbury wrote:
Reasons you should be a Republican

If you believe in federal deficit spending, if you believe that tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans stimulate economic growth, if you believe that business interests should take precedent over environmental interests, if you believe that the U.S. military can and should be used to protect U.S. economic interests abroad, if you believe that heterosexuals should have rights that homosexuals do not, then for all these reasons, you should be a republican.

Reasons you should be a democrat
If you believe in a balanced federal budget, if you believe that domestic programs should take precedent over military spending, if you believe in a woman's right to choose, if you favor civil unions or marriage for gay couples, if you believe that people with the highest incomes should be taxed equivalently to the less wealthy, if you believe that environmental concerns should take precedent over business issues, then for all these reasons, you should be a democrat.


lol yeah no bias there at all...

Elderbury wrote:
if you believe that tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans stimulate economic growth


Mate, I am no where near the wealthiest americans, and I can guarantee you I felt those tax cuts. It put more money in my pocket each paycheck.

Elderbury wrote:
if you believe that heterosexuals should have rights that homosexuals do not


I am totally calling shenanigans on this statement. I am a conservative and believe people should enjoy the same secular rights, regardless of orientation.

Elderbury wrote:
if you favor civil unions or marriage for gay couples

Yeah see here is the thing, I am all in favor of Civil Unions, but not Gay Marriage. Yet, amazingly, I am called a bigot, funny thing, that.
Elderbury wrote:
if you believe that people with the highest incomes should be taxed equivalently to the less wealthy

Again, shenanigans...I do believe in taxing the rich equally to the poor. The Democrats are the ones who believe the rich should pay a higher tax rate than the poor. We conservatives want a flat tax across the board. This is simple basic math that noone seems to get..If we all pay 10% then it is a fair and even tax. Poor man makes 100 dollars and pays 10 dollars in taxes. Rich man makes 1000 dollars and pays 100 dollars in taxes. Seems fair to me. Now lets go with the current tax code that liberals so adore...poor person makes 100 dollars and pays 22% or 22 dollars, rich person makes 1000 dollars and pays 33% or 330 dollars. I am using the tax brackets from a previous poster.

Bah, has anyone else realized that the entire political party system has become nothing more than a Yankees vs Red Sox argument with nothing real getting done?

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Cleomenes
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:02 pm
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Bovne wrote:

sloof70 wrote:
Taxes and Budget: Know why politicians give tax breaks to the rich? Because they are their friends. Even with higher taxes, the rich will still be rich, so stop bitching about it. Also, the budget should always be balanced. The government has been spending "imaginary money" for far too long.


I don't understand why people say this. The higher the income the greater the tax percentage you pay. Last year, my wife and I (we file jointly) finally went over the $100000 mark for total income. That change our tax bracket. Instead of having to pay about 22% income tax, now we had to pay 33%. Because of this, we ended up owing at that end of the year instead of getting a refund. I don't see how this is fair? Had we made less money, I would have been able to keep more.
[/quote]

Just to clarify, this isn't exactly how a progressive tax works. If it did, there would be an incentive to actually make less money in some situations. Note the Earned Income Tax credit is a different story, but generally only applies to very poor working families with dependants (people who really need it).

With a progressive tax, only the part of your income over the next bracket is taxed at that bracket.

A simple example:

A tax system with the following brackets:

0-$10,000 10%
$10,001-$50,000 20%
$50,001+ 30%

In this system, someone making $8,000 would have tax liability of $800.

Someone making $25,000 would not have a tax liability of $5,000, but rather $4,000 (10% of $10,000+ 20% of the remaining $15,000).

When you went into the next bracket, you were not all of a sudden paying more taxes on money you were already making, but simply a higher percentage of the extra money. Your not losing money on the deal.

The tax rates at the higher brackets never go above 35%, check out what people at those levels per paying in the 60s and 70s!

This is the current schedule: http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=109877,00.html

Also note, SS tax rates work differently, and actually have a cap to how much of income is taxable by it.

Just posing to clarify, I'll make an opinion post later :D

edit: Looking at the post, I realize It might be a bit pedantic. The original poster probably knows this stuff already, but simply didn't remember to change their W-2 witholding amounts when their income increased. I made the same mistake last year, and also suffered for it :(

I'll leave this post as is, but I didn't intend to give anyone a lecture.

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OolonColluphid
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:11 pm
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Taidaishar wrote:
I'm not saying that civil unions should or should NOT be legalized. I'm merely saying that as it stands now, homosexuals have the same rights as we do. If civil unions happen, it's not just going to give homosexuals the right to marry someone of the same sex, it's going to give EVERYONE that right, even heterosexuals.



Marriage isn't the only right denied gay americans. Though there are a multitude of rights and privileges associated with marriage that are denied to gay couples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of_marriages_in_the_United_States

And without being able to legally declare the other person as a dependent a homosexual couple cannot benefit from one another’s health insurance. In some states laws have been passed that ban same-sex partner benefits. Without lawful recognition of gay couples a child cannot inherit from their biological parent’s same-sex partner. A gay or lesbian couple can be legally denied housing in many states. A same sex partner has no legal standing to sue for wrongful death, make arrangements for their partner’s funeral, or visit their partner in the hospital. A gay or lesbian couple cannot adopt in many states. In others a person in a same sex relationship cannot even file domestic abuse charges. According to the law two men or women who love each other and lived together for years are just strangers. And this institutionalized discrimination does not end with just a couple. The anti-gay stance of the united states military and state department are fine examples of a place where heterosexuals have rights that are denied to homosexuals. One of the most heinous and egregious violations of a homosexual man or woman’s civil rights is that in many states it is perfectly legal to fire someone, simply for being gay.

Sources:
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbc ... 8801310406
http://www.lambdalegal.org/news/pr/judg ... argue.html
http://www.blueoregon.com/2007/04/two_historic_an.html
http://wcco.com/politics/gay.marriage.h ... 66176.html
http://www.metroweekly.com/gauge/?ak=2534
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Jan10.html
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2 ... riage-ban/
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A963958260
http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/discrim/index.html


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OolonColluphid
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:37 pm
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Honar wrote:
Yeah see here is the thing, I am all in favor of Civil Unions, but not Gay Marriage. Yet, amazingly, I am called a bigot, funny thing, that.


I wouldn't call you a bigot, but I find creating a separate but equal status for one minority group to be rather discriminatory. If you are going to make the argument of marriage as a religious institution then we should have civil unions for everyone and thus have religious marriage wholly separate from the legal contract of marriage. Though as long as atheists can get married marriage is not a religious institution. ;)


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Cellenee
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:49 pm
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OolonColluphid wrote:
Honar wrote:
Yeah see here is the thing, I am all in favor of Civil Unions, but not Gay Marriage. Yet, amazingly, I am called a bigot, funny thing, that.


I wouldn't call you a bigot, but I find creating a separate but equal status for one minority group to be rather discriminatory. If you are going to make the argument of marriage as a religious institution then we should have civil unions for everyone and thus have religious marriage wholly separate from the legal contract of marriage. Though as long as atheists can get married marriage is not a religious institution. ;)


I am thinking along these lines as well. Marriage is a religious ceremony, when you get married in a church you are still required to take the document in to be certified by the state or get a license from the state. Problem is people would go all emo if you called all marriages as they exist now civil unions.

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Srill
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:35 am
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I'm a Registered Republican, but I consider my self more of a Libertarian then I do Republican because I'm a Conservative first and foremost. I believe in the individual( I believe that you can succeed, I believe that you can fail, I believe that it's up to you). I believe in the Constitution of this Great Country and the fact that ALL men are created equal. I believe in small government with LESS regulation on business. I believe in freedom of religion not freedom from religion. I believe in the free market and letting the market correct not thur stimulus checks but time. I believe in low taxes(because the more money you have the more you can save or spend, depending on what you decide, not what someone tells you). I believe in school choice. I believe that you don't need someone to tell you what to and how to do it. I believe that America is the greatest country in the world, that you can achieve any thing if you try. I believe that you and I are what makes America great.


On non-Fiscal issues I rank as a Strong Conservative(88) and on Fiscal issues I rank as a Strong Conservative(85)

I also believe that the current tax code is horrible and should be replaced with the Fairtax

http://www.fairtax.org

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OolonColluphid
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:31 pm
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Srill wrote:
I believe in freedom of religion not freedom from religion.


How do you mean? The reason I ask is because when I think of "freedom from religion" I think of the freedom to be an atheist. I have seen some others use it to mean that state sponsored programs (schools) should not endorse a religion and/or tax money should not go to religious groups. So, I'm just curious what "freedom from religion" means to you.


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Srill
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:04 am
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OolonColluphid wrote:
Srill wrote:
I believe in freedom of religion not freedom from religion.


How do you mean? The reason I ask is because when I think of "freedom from religion" I think of the freedom to be an atheist. I have seen some others use it to mean that state sponsored programs (schools) should not endorse a religion and/or tax money should not go to religious groups. So, I'm just curious what "freedom from religion" means to you.



To me Freedom of religion, means that you can practice any religion you like, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism or you can be an atheist or an agnostic, it's up to you. However, there is no freedom from religion, meaning that anyone can display the Ten Commandments, or whatever other religious symbol anywhere. Also if you go to a government building and there's something religious on display doesn't mean you have to look at it. No one is forcing you to look at their cross on their neck or prayer mat in there locker at school. Freedom of means you can practice whatever you choose, I can tell you you are wrong, but you can still do it.

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OolonColluphid
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:54 am
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Srill wrote:
Also if you go to a government building and there's something religious on display doesn't mean you have to look at it.


I have no problem with the rest of what you said, but specific religious symbols (bought with taxpayer money) in a courthouse and/or school violate the seperation o church and state. If someone wants to donate a ten commandments monument and have it labeled as such, or a government employee wants to adorn their space with religious symbols I have no problem. Yet if a school or courthouse uses taxpayer funds to put up a picture of Jesus or the ten commandments then that goes beyond freedom of religion and becomes tax payer money funding religion and thus showing preference to a religion.

I agree that there are those that go overboard against public displays of religion, but I don't think tax money or government organizations should be involved in religion. It's a dangerous mix.


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Srill
Post subject: Re: Why are you a Democrat?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:22 pm
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OolonColluphid wrote:
Srill wrote:
Also if you go to a government building and there's something religious on display doesn't mean you have to look at it.


I have no problem with the rest of what you said, but specific religious symbols (bought with taxpayer money) in a courthouse and/or school violate the seperation o church and state. If someone wants to donate a ten commandments monument and have it labeled as such, or a government employee wants to adorn their space with religious symbols I have no problem. Yet if a school or courthouse uses taxpayer funds to put up a picture of Jesus or the ten commandments then that goes beyond freedom of religion and becomes tax payer money funding religion and thus showing preference to a religion.

I agree that there are those that go overboard against public displays of religion, but I don't think tax money or government organizations should be involved in religion. It's a dangerous mix.


The separation of church and state, is a phrase that is often toss about by those whom are afraid of ANYTHING religious being on display, anywhere. Secondly, there is no reference to the separation of church and state ANYWAY in the constitution or the bill of rights. The phrase comes from Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, which you can find at
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html
In this letter Thomas Jefferson explains why he didn't call for national days of fasting and Thanksgiving, as George Washington and John Adams had as president. But two days later he, himself went to church.

This phrase is always taken out of context, and once again we return to the whole freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

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